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	<title>Comments on: Stand for Something Catholics &#8211; Marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman.</title>
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	<link>http://butasforme.com/2008/11/18/stand-for-something-catholics-marriage-is-a-sacred-institution-between-a-man-and-a-woman/</link>
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		<title>By: armchairmba</title>
		<link>http://butasforme.com/2008/11/18/stand-for-something-catholics-marriage-is-a-sacred-institution-between-a-man-and-a-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-290</link>
		<dc:creator>armchairmba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butasforme.wordpress.com/?p=2146#comment-290</guid>
		<description>If you are a member of the church, why are you an outspoken critic?

I have seen a few ads from both sides, not all of them. And I do not know what they say in their pulpits.
However, even if the message is false, the ballot’s language is agreed upon by both sides prior to Election Day to avoid lawsuits. Does your premise undermine the American people, by assuming they cannot read the ballot and make a discerning choice?
Furthermore, across America, similar measures were put to the test with overwhelming support for the sanctity of marriage. How can you explain that phenomenon? I know it was on the ballot here in Florida, and the Mormons did not run any advertising. Yet it passed by an even wider margin than Proposition 8.
The Fact is: This is what the American people want—Marriage to be defined between one man and one woman.
I understand the LDS Church made concessions on polygamy. Do you also believe marriage should also include multiple wives? Husbands?
I think it is great that people, in a democracy, can congregate and support the direction of government they feel will best suit their needs. I commend the LDS Church and Catholic Church for their strong support of their beliefs. It tells me they stand for something—and are not afraid to face public scrutiny for an unpopular view—a huge plus in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are a member of the church, why are you an outspoken critic?</p>
<p>I have seen a few ads from both sides, not all of them. And I do not know what they say in their pulpits.<br />
However, even if the message is false, the ballot’s language is agreed upon by both sides prior to Election Day to avoid lawsuits. Does your premise undermine the American people, by assuming they cannot read the ballot and make a discerning choice?<br />
Furthermore, across America, similar measures were put to the test with overwhelming support for the sanctity of marriage. How can you explain that phenomenon? I know it was on the ballot here in Florida, and the Mormons did not run any advertising. Yet it passed by an even wider margin than Proposition 8.<br />
The Fact is: This is what the American people want—Marriage to be defined between one man and one woman.<br />
I understand the LDS Church made concessions on polygamy. Do you also believe marriage should also include multiple wives? Husbands?<br />
I think it is great that people, in a democracy, can congregate and support the direction of government they feel will best suit their needs. I commend the LDS Church and Catholic Church for their strong support of their beliefs. It tells me they stand for something—and are not afraid to face public scrutiny for an unpopular view—a huge plus in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Dibble</title>
		<link>http://butasforme.com/2008/11/18/stand-for-something-catholics-marriage-is-a-sacred-institution-between-a-man-and-a-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-289</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Dibble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butasforme.wordpress.com/?p=2146#comment-289</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t recall hearing of any church telling their congregation that the church would be destroyed if Prop 8 passed.  In fact, I did not hear of any major churches campaigning against Prop 8 at all (aside from a mention or two from a pulpit here and there, which is FAR from what both the LDS Church and to a lesser extent the Catholic Church did).

The fact that the &quot;Yes on 8&quot; propaganda was all demonstrably FALSE doesn&#039;t help your cause.  EVERY major church has a fundamental law along the lines of &quot;thou shalt not lie&quot;.

Please, educate me.  Which major church threw its entire weight behind DEFEATING Prop 8?

In any case, the point stands:  despite the false propaganda from the Yes on 8 campaign, NO RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION WAS THREATENED by the California Constitution as it stood.  It remained the Church&#039;s right to decide which couples it was to marry, and which benefits it would give to couples married by other denominations.  No church risked losing tax-exempt status for not marrying gays (notable fact:  the LDS Church didn&#039;t lose its tax-exempt status despite YEARS of bucking general civil rights trends with respect to race and not admitting blacks to the priesthood).

Frankly, this article is based on the false premise, as much of Prop 8&#039;s literature is, that churches were somehow threatened with being shut down if gays were allowed to call their unions &quot;marriage&quot; instead of &quot;domestic partnership&quot;.  This is patently false, and the rest of it fails due to a wholly invalid premise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t recall hearing of any church telling their congregation that the church would be destroyed if Prop 8 passed.  In fact, I did not hear of any major churches campaigning against Prop 8 at all (aside from a mention or two from a pulpit here and there, which is FAR from what both the LDS Church and to a lesser extent the Catholic Church did).</p>
<p>The fact that the &#8220;Yes on 8&#8243; propaganda was all demonstrably FALSE doesn&#8217;t help your cause.  EVERY major church has a fundamental law along the lines of &#8220;thou shalt not lie&#8221;.</p>
<p>Please, educate me.  Which major church threw its entire weight behind DEFEATING Prop 8?</p>
<p>In any case, the point stands:  despite the false propaganda from the Yes on 8 campaign, NO RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION WAS THREATENED by the California Constitution as it stood.  It remained the Church&#8217;s right to decide which couples it was to marry, and which benefits it would give to couples married by other denominations.  No church risked losing tax-exempt status for not marrying gays (notable fact:  the LDS Church didn&#8217;t lose its tax-exempt status despite YEARS of bucking general civil rights trends with respect to race and not admitting blacks to the priesthood).</p>
<p>Frankly, this article is based on the false premise, as much of Prop 8&#8242;s literature is, that churches were somehow threatened with being shut down if gays were allowed to call their unions &#8220;marriage&#8221; instead of &#8220;domestic partnership&#8221;.  This is patently false, and the rest of it fails due to a wholly invalid premise.</p>
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		<title>By: armchairmba</title>
		<link>http://butasforme.com/2008/11/18/stand-for-something-catholics-marriage-is-a-sacred-institution-between-a-man-and-a-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-288</link>
		<dc:creator>armchairmba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butasforme.wordpress.com/?p=2146#comment-288</guid>
		<description>We live in a democracy. A church should be free to tell their members that look to them for leadership views on social issues-or any issues for that matter. Anything less is censorship.

Should the churches that told their members to vote against proposition 8 be told the same thing?

We have seen the people speak, by their votes, and it is more representative than a few judges making a decision for all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We live in a democracy. A church should be free to tell their members that look to them for leadership views on social issues-or any issues for that matter. Anything less is censorship.</p>
<p>Should the churches that told their members to vote against proposition 8 be told the same thing?</p>
<p>We have seen the people speak, by their votes, and it is more representative than a few judges making a decision for all.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Dibble</title>
		<link>http://butasforme.com/2008/11/18/stand-for-something-catholics-marriage-is-a-sacred-institution-between-a-man-and-a-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-287</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Dibble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://butasforme.wordpress.com/?p=2146#comment-287</guid>
		<description>&quot;The Catholic Church takes a very high view of marriage and human sexuality.&quot;

And, they can keep it to themselves and their congregations.

The Catholic Church ALSO has a very high view of holy communion and Last Rites, but they have no right dictating the ability for other faiths to administer the sacraments.

Marriage in the Church, no matter which religion you hold to, is a sacrament.  The Catholic Church is in no way obligated to acknowledge sacraments made outside its rules.  In fact, the Catholic Church is in no way obligated to acknowledge any sacraments, including the ones it administers!  Moreover, the Catholic Church is fully within its rights to REFUSE any sacrament or ceremony to any member or non member, with or without reason.

The LDS Church (I am a member) has LONG used this authority, refusing Temple Marriage to any &quot;unworthy&quot; members.  The rules for this are fairly well laid out (and practicing homosexuals are specifically banned).  There is NO WAY either the LDS or Catholic Churches would ever have been forced to either:

1.  Administer a gay marriage ceremony
2.  Acknowledge a gay marriage as valid in the eyes of God

&quot;Marriage&quot;, as redefined in Prop 8, is the SECULAR definition of marriage.  Unfortunately, it shares a name with the spiritual ceremony most Churches observe.  However, it is a complete error to believe that Prop 8 affected in any way, shape, or form what the Catholic Church observes, believes, or acts on with respect to marriage.

The REASON the churches backed Prop 8 is the same reason they would back any proposition enforcing their particular morality on the general populace.  In this case, there is enough confusion in the populace about what &quot;marriage&quot; means when it appears in the state code that their efforts bore fruit.  However, it is no more &quot;right&quot; for them to foist this morality on the general populace than it would be for them to require that all last rites be administered using specific Catholic prayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The Catholic Church takes a very high view of marriage and human sexuality.&#8221;</p>
<p>And, they can keep it to themselves and their congregations.</p>
<p>The Catholic Church ALSO has a very high view of holy communion and Last Rites, but they have no right dictating the ability for other faiths to administer the sacraments.</p>
<p>Marriage in the Church, no matter which religion you hold to, is a sacrament.  The Catholic Church is in no way obligated to acknowledge sacraments made outside its rules.  In fact, the Catholic Church is in no way obligated to acknowledge any sacraments, including the ones it administers!  Moreover, the Catholic Church is fully within its rights to REFUSE any sacrament or ceremony to any member or non member, with or without reason.</p>
<p>The LDS Church (I am a member) has LONG used this authority, refusing Temple Marriage to any &#8220;unworthy&#8221; members.  The rules for this are fairly well laid out (and practicing homosexuals are specifically banned).  There is NO WAY either the LDS or Catholic Churches would ever have been forced to either:</p>
<p>1.  Administer a gay marriage ceremony<br />
2.  Acknowledge a gay marriage as valid in the eyes of God</p>
<p>&#8220;Marriage&#8221;, as redefined in Prop 8, is the SECULAR definition of marriage.  Unfortunately, it shares a name with the spiritual ceremony most Churches observe.  However, it is a complete error to believe that Prop 8 affected in any way, shape, or form what the Catholic Church observes, believes, or acts on with respect to marriage.</p>
<p>The REASON the churches backed Prop 8 is the same reason they would back any proposition enforcing their particular morality on the general populace.  In this case, there is enough confusion in the populace about what &#8220;marriage&#8221; means when it appears in the state code that their efforts bore fruit.  However, it is no more &#8220;right&#8221; for them to foist this morality on the general populace than it would be for them to require that all last rites be administered using specific Catholic prayers.</p>
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